Hottest Sample so far - Autunite Crystal from China

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Go-Figure
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Re: Hottest Sample so far - Autunite Crystal from China

Post by Go-Figure » 30 Sep 2019, 20:47

gwgw wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 08:44
Well I am kind of radon-phobic, so probably mine is just irrational fear. Still, keeping uranium in the appartment is something I tend to avoid. I keep all of my low-activity samples that give any uranium peaks on the balcony. I don't have that attitude towards thorium though, I keep my calibration material on my desk, inside a metal box, for easy access :) But still the thorium radon byproduct is a different isotope, it has a very short half-life. I guess most of it is already gone before escaping the box. Or at least I hope so :)
A company doing the measurement would be the best choice, but in my experience even an active digital detector gives you an idea of the situation and it doesn't require a laboratory to extract results from it. It also allows you to see fluctuations from winter to summer and viceversa.
Of course one has to keep in mind that, although the device will give a first result after just one day, you need at least a week to have a somewhat significant number and a much longer time to have a reliable one.

As for the samples, I keep all my "radioactive stuff" locked away, you never know who can come across those objects when you are not at home, maybe someone visiting with children or just a curious adult. People tend to do the wrong thing when they have the chance to :)
The only exception is uranium glassware, which I still keep in the room where I do my experiments, most of the time there's no one there.

Massimo

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Re: Hottest Sample so far - Autunite Crystal from China

Post by gwgw » 01 Oct 2019, 08:27

Well, while theoretically possible, getting the thorium stuff out of the metal box I keep it in isn't that easy, requires some effort, definitely not that easy for kids. I don't keep anything of higher activity at home at all though, so those rods are the most radioactive thing I have, they are a weak source that gives about 0.4-0.5 uSv/h gamma at close range and practically undetectable from outside the metal box. I keep them in their original plastic package, wrapped in duct tape so you really need to try hard to get them out. The other weakly radioactive samples I have, I keep on the balcony in plastic containers. They are of very low activity though, mostly rocks and sands from various places as that's what I am mostly interested in. Practically harmless to anyone that decides to play with them. The Vromos sand I wrote about is probably the most dangerous, but not because of the uranium in it, it has high concentration of copper, arsenic and heavy metals like cadmium from the mine, so it's probably not the best thing to ingest, it's likely chemically toxic.

As for radon measurements, yes, I think a company specialized in that would do the best job (would be also cheaper than getting a radon meter for sure). I don't expect the levels to be high though as it's 3rd floor. My wife was worried about the granite countertop in the kitchen and that's actually why she wanted that measured, there was a media hysteria about that some time ago. The countertop gives a nice (mostly) thorium spectrum btw just like the tiles in the bathroom :) Still the rooms are ventilated regularily. Well unfortunately less so in the winter.
Regards,
Milen Rangelov

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Go-Figure
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Re: Hottest Sample so far - Autunite Crystal from China

Post by Go-Figure » 07 Oct 2019, 02:12

Last sunday I wrote I would have attempted a Radon measurement with and without the Autunite crystal "sooner or later".
In the end I couldn't resist and I started one the very next day.
As I said before I am currently monitoring the bedroom of a house made of tuff. The room is at the upper floor of the house so Radon from the soil is not a factor there. I am using an active detector in order to have a continuous radon monitor.

Tuff is a pretty common building material in Italy (well, it was more common in the past than it is now, but there are still a lot of buildings made of tuff around) but I suspect it's not as well known in the rest of the world. So for those who want to know why a tuff building should be interesting at all as far as radiation in general, and Radon in particular, is concerned you can read this post where I tested some Tuff blocks used to build this very same building viewtopic.php?f=5&t=520

I first measured the Radon level after a period if 3-4 weeks when door, window and shutter of the room had been constantly closed with very little air change. Nobody is living there in this time of the year.
As a result Radon built up inside the room and I got a week average of nearly 400 Bq/m3. Unfortunately I don't have the photo of this measurement.
Later on I left the detector there but providing an air change of roughly an hour once a week while leaving the window open (but the shutter still closed), providing a small but constant ventilation, and the level decreased to 200-220 Bq/m3 and held stable for several weeks now. With a normal use of the house during the summer months the level is likely between 100 and 200 Bq/m3, so not a worrying one.

Here you can see what the weekly average was last monday, September 30. 205 Bq/m3.
20190930_153705RR.png
On that day I took the 3.9 grams Autunite crystal, inside a plastic bag and a small polystyrene container, and put it in the room. The light of the photos is poor because I still kept the shutters closed (albeit open them for a minute or two woulnd't have made any real difference).

So here's the crystal.
DSC06988R.jpg
And here's the room. You can see the window open with the shutter closed. The green circle highlight the position where the crystal was left, while the red cicle is the where the detector is. Being a bedroom I figured out the most significant place would be at the same height from the ground as the person sleeping there would be, so the bedside table was perfect for that.
The room is about 15 square meters with an average height below 3 meters, therefore we are talking of roughly 40 cubic meters.
DSC06986R-Circled.jpg
After six days the weekly average barely moved, albeit this is still an initial result it doesn't seem like the presence of the crystal is having a significant impact so far. A 5-10% oscillation is perfectly normal considering the changing weather.
DSC06991R.jpg
I think one day I'll do a thread on this measurement I currently doing, with the gamma spectrum of the room and a dose assessment from both gamma radiation and Radon.
When the temperature will go down in winter I will close the window, stop the weekly air changes, and let the Radon build up again.

Massimo

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Re: Hottest Sample so far - Autunite Crystal from China

Post by gwgw » 07 Oct 2019, 08:53

That's good, apparently it doesn't leak much.

By a coincidence, I ordered the very same radon meter recently :) Still waiting for it though. At some time I will put it right into the box I keep the thorium rods, wondering if it would give anything different than the normal room radon levels.
Regards,
Milen Rangelov

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Re: Hottest Sample so far - Autunite Crystal from China

Post by gwgw » 16 Oct 2019, 06:46

Hello Massimo,

Got my radon meter (the same gray AirThings one). I got very low readings after the first 24 hours or so - just 18 Bq/m3 long-term average. Manual says accuracy gets within 20% after a week and within 10% after a month, so I guess this value is pretty inaccurate, it needs more data to average. The room is regularily ventilated, but well - winter is coming soon. If it really turns out to be that low then hmmm probably I would violate my "uranium ban"....hehe.

But still I am wondering...what are your impressions of the unit? Is it way far off after the first 24h of measurements?
Regards,
Milen Rangelov

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Go-Figure
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Re: Hottest Sample so far - Autunite Crystal from China

Post by Go-Figure » 17 Oct 2019, 01:28

gwgw wrote:
16 Oct 2019, 06:46
Hello Massimo,

Got my radon meter (the same gray AirThings one). I got very low readings after the first 24 hours or so - just 18 Bq/m3 long-term average. Manual says accuracy gets within 20% after a week and within 10% after a month, so I guess this value is pretty inaccurate, it needs more data to average. The room is regularily ventilated, but well - winter is coming soon. If it really turns out to be that low then hmmm probably I would violate my "uranium ban"....hehe.

But still I am wondering...what are your impressions of the unit? Is it way far off after the first 24h of measurements?
Chances are Radon level is pretty low in the room you are testing, but you will probably see quite a lot of fluctuations from one day to the next. I mean, it won't be 18 one day and 500 the next, not even 150, but it will fluctuate. I know it's "hard" to wait at the beginning but as far as I am concerned the first result I take seriously is the first 7 days average. Even better a long term monthly average.
When you test a working place you generally do a year long measurement, because Radon fluctuates with the changing seasons and in the end you need to transalate the Bq/m3 in msv/year, and you can only do that accurately having the avarage over a year long period of time.
Still weekly readings with active detectors can give you an idea.

On the "ban", I told you, you need to quit smoking (as far as Radon effect is concerned it will be the equivalent of cutting Radon level by a factor 25!) and get the Autunite crystal, which is a beautiful sample and really fun to test!
I am not giving up as you can see :)

Massimo

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Re: Hottest Sample so far - Autunite Crystal from China

Post by gwgw » 17 Oct 2019, 05:50

After 48h, it is now 25 Bq/m3. I guess radon levels are low after all...which is good :) If my monthly average turns up to be below 50, I will lift "the ban" :) Well, probably won't get that particular autunite, the listing has expired. It was beautiful indeed - https://www.olx.bg/ad/kristal-autunite- ... 7RNUe.html

Anyway, natural uranium sources are still likely available to anyone that takes a walk around the former uranium mine at Seslavtsi which is administratively speaking...within city limits :) It is a notorious example of recultivation done poorly and hastily. I've heard a some people pick up samples from there, literally along the road. There are also videos like this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdr0FU7Hd2Q

Well that's nowhere as pretty as the autunite on the other hand :(
Regards,
Milen Rangelov

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Go-Figure
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Re: Hottest Sample so far - Autunite Crystal from China

Post by Go-Figure » 18 Oct 2019, 09:15

gwgw wrote:
17 Oct 2019, 05:50
Well that's nowhere as pretty as the autunite on the other hand :(
Yeah, not nearly as pretty, still picking samples walking down the road is a lot more fun than an online auction!

Massimo

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Re: Hottest Sample so far - Autunite Crystal from China

Post by MartinM » 24 Dec 2019, 05:13

Since Radon is heavier than air, I think you should measure the levels near the floor where it's accumulating.

A while ago I took part in a presentation about Radon in buildings and the observation was that highest levels were measured near pipes (gas, water, etc) entering the buildings. The fact about combination of smoking+Radon contributing to health risks was well discussed there too. But the funny thing was that when the presenter (a university professor, expert in Radon measurements) finished the presentation, he went for a break to smoke a cigarette :-D

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Re: Hottest Sample so far - Autunite Crystal from China

Post by Go-Figure » 24 Dec 2019, 06:58

MartinM wrote:
24 Dec 2019, 05:13
Since Radon is heavier than air, I think you should measure the levels near the floor where it's accumulating.

A while ago I took part in a presentation about Radon in buildings and the observation was that highest levels were measured near pipes (gas, water, etc) entering the buildings. The fact about combination of smoking+Radon contributing to health risks was well discussed there too. But the funny thing was that when the presenter (a university professor, expert in Radon measurements) finished the presentation, he went for a break to smoke a cigarette :-D
Yeah, people often don't realise example is not in what you say, it's in what you do.

As for the measurement, you want to measure where is most significant, which is not necessarely where the level is the higest.
In a bedroom you want to know Radon's concentration at the height of the bed, where people's mouths and noses spend most of the time.

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